With malice aforethought, the Wheel of Time Reread Redux! Today’s Redux post will cover Chapters 6 and 7 of The Great Hunt, originally reread in this post.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.) The Wheel of Time Reread is also available as an e-book series! Yay! All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Chapter 6: Dark Prophecy
Redux Commentary
Two red-clad Aes Sedai stepped through, bowing their master in. A mask the color of dried blood covered Ba’alzamon’s face, but Rand could see the flames of his eyes through the eyeslits; he could hear the roaring fires of Ba’alzamon’s mouth.
I am completely certain that I am far from the first person to notice or mention this, but: some people I know were yelling at each other about Harry Potter the other day (like you do), and as a result it reminded me just now of the rather sharp parallels between the Red Ajah, and the Hogwarts House of Slytherin.
If you have had anything to do with Harry Potter fandom ever, you’re probably familiar with this argument, which has to do with some fans’ anger and/or skepticism over how one entire fourth of the student population of Hogwarts was destined to be Sorted into a House comprised, evidently, of nothing but over-privileged bigots, bullies, and occasional power-mad would-be despots and their hangers-on. As the argument goes, it seems like poor planning on the school administrators’ part to separate out all the eeeeevil kids and then stick them all together to stew in their own hatred juices until the inevitable explosion occurs. If they’re all such irredeemably awful people, they say, why not expel them the moment the Sorting Hat calls them Slytherin and save yourself the trouble? And if they’re not all irredeemably awful people, why not make that clearer in the series proper? One Severus Snape does not a balanced portrayal make, they say.
It’s not a 1:1 correlation, obviously, but it seems like an awful lot of the arguments leveled at J.K. Rowling’s treatment of Slytherin in the Harry Potter novels can also be applied to the portrayal of the Red Ajah in WOT. Bigotry? Check. Bullies? So much check. Occasional power-mad would-be despots avec hangers-on (coughcoughElaidacough)? Yeah, got it covered.
I made the comment somewhere in the original commentary that I’m pretty sure we don’t meet a single non-horrible Red sister in WOT until the introduction of Pevara Tazanovni in ACOS. Which is, in case you forgot, not until halfway through the entire series. And up to that point, pretty much every Red Aes Sedai we meet is either Officially Evil (Liandrin, Galina, etc.) or Accidentally Evil (see a’Roihan, Elaida do Avriny). Not exactly a shining track record, there. And later in TGS/TOM, we get more specific numbers on the Black Ajah, and we learn that a disproportionate percentage of them are from the Red. Now, obviously this is at least in part owing to the simple fact that the Red Ajah was the largest Ajah to begin with, but still, this definitely contributes to the impression that the Red Ajah was basically crap overall.
I think that Jordan was a tad less biased in his portrayal of the Red versus Rowling’s portrayal of Slytherin, in that there were at least four non-crap Red sisters in the series proper (Pevara, Tarna until she was Turned, Silviana, and Teslyn post-damane-ing), whereas other than Snape, and to some small extent Professor Slughorn, I can’t think of a single Slytherin offhand who came off well in the HP novels. (Neither Draco nor his mother count in my opinion, as their “redemptions” are more like buyer’s remorse than anything else. Tchah.)
This is a problem that’s possibly endemic to the general need of a story to have conflict, and the reality that in stories of the epic length and scope of Harry Potter and WOT you have to have at least some antagonists who aren’t the antagonist, or your conflict will get pretty one-note pretty fast. Plus it’s a thing: every school story has to have a bully, and every… er, story of an apocalyptic global battle between good and evil has to have that one (or two, or five) pack(s) of idiots who don’t even realize they’re on the wrong side.
For the first time, he realized that Nynaeve was not wearing the Two Rivers woolens he was used to. Her dress was pale blue silk, embroidered in snowdrop blossoms around the neck and down the sleeves. Each blossom centered on a small pearl, and her belt was tooled in silver, with a silver buckle set with pearls. He had never seen her in anything like that. Even feastday clothes back home might not match it.
When you consider that silk is (apparently) something that can only be obtained from Shara via traders brave enough to traverse the Aiel Waste, and the amount of work that must have gone into hand-embroidering that many flowers, to say nothing of the pearls, which probably came from the Sea Folk (to landlocked Shienar, which is nowhere near an ocean), the only thing to conclude is that is one damn expensive dress. I wonder if even Nynaeve knew at this point how much of a luxury item it was. (Rand obviously did not.)
“And I wasn’t watching you when the Dark One’s eye fell on you just now? Don’t tell me you felt nothing, or I’ll box your ears; I saw your face.”
“He’s dead,” Rand insisted. The unseen watcher flashed through his head, and the wind on the tower top. He shivered. “Strange things happen this close to the Blight.”
“You are a fool, Rand al’Thor.” She shook a fist at him. “I would box your ears for you if I thought it would knock any sense—”
The rest of her words were swallowed as bells crashed out ringing all over the keep.
He bounded to his feet. “That’s an alarm! They’re searching…” Name the Dark One, and his evil comes down on you.
I do like that this was one of the things left ambiguous, possibly a reality but also possibly pure superstition; does saying the Dark One’s “true name” lead to disaster, or was it only coincidence? I feel like this is, in both real life and fiction, a question more effectively left unanswered.
Then a woman came out into the hall, face-to-face with him, and he stopped in spite of himself. He recognized that face above the rest; he thought he would remember it if he lived forever. The Amyrlin Seat. Her eyes widened at the sight of him, and she started back. Another Aes Sedai, the tall woman he had seen with the staff, put herself between him and the Amyrlin, shouting something at him that he could not make out over the increasing babble.
She knows. Light help me, she knows. Moiraine told her. Snarling, he ran on. Light, just let me make sure Egwene’s safe before they… He heard shouting behind him, but he did not listen.
This is another moment I think would be awesome to see on screen. One of many, obviously, but this is one of the ones that struck me in particular this time around.
And actually, also the moment after this, when Rand encounters Trollocs in the hall and completely fails to adequately fight them. Mainly because it demonstrates the truth that excellence in theory (Lan complimenting him on the tower-top) can mean very little in practice, and also because it provides a great reference to show how far Rand will eventually go re: battle prowess.
“No one will pass those gates, from inside or out. As soon as Lord Agelmar heard what had happened, he ordered that no one was to be allowed to leave the keep without his personal permission.”
As soon as he heard…? “Ingtar, what about before? What about the earlier order keeping everyone in?”
“Earlier order? What earlier order? Rand, the keep was not closed until Lord Agelmar heard of this. Someone told you wrong.”
Rand shook his head slowly. Neither Ragan nor Tema would have made up something like that. And even if the Amyrlin Seat had given the order, Ingtar would have to know of it. So who? And how? He glanced sideways at Ingtar, wondering if the Shienaran was lying. You really are going mad if you suspect Ingtar.
Or, you know, not. I’m not sure why this confused me in the original commentary, because it seems totally obvious now. Oh well.
Rand hurried out. Even if they had not been Aes Sedai, he would not have wanted to remain in the same room with anyone who thought reading Trolloc script written in human blood was “interesting.”
Well… but it is interesting. I mean, it’s also terrible! Obviously! But also… you know, interesting. For historical reasons.
*tucks away latent Brown tendencies guiltily*
Chapter 7: Blood Calls Blood
Redux Commentary
Speaking of Brown tendencies. Enter: VERIN. Huzzah!
(I mean, she was in the story prior to this, but this is where she enters the story, if you know what I mean.)
So reading this chapter is rather different now that I know the end of the series, and Verin’s story in particular. Basically everything Verin does in the entire series, I predict, will acquire an extra patina of awesome on top of the awesome that was already there, now that I know what Verin was really doing all along. I heart her so very much, you guys.
“I can only give you what I know, Mother,” Verin said, looking up from her notes, “and leave the decision in your hands. I believe the last of Artur Hawkwing’s foreign armies died long ago, but because I believe it does not make it so. The Time of Change, of course, refers to the end of an Age, and the Great Lord—”
Heh. One her first significant lines in the series, and she gives us a clue as to her real affiliation. Except absolutely not!
It’s sort of gleefully awesome (see?) in this scene to see how adroitly Verin misleads even Moiraine into thinking she is just one more research-obsessed Brown, with no real knowledge or interest in the tiger she just picked up by the tail, when of course in retrospect it’s clear she knew exactly what she was doing the entire time. I mean, I knew that on the first Reread as well, but now I know she really knew what she was doing. Hah, such a secret badass, I love it.
It’s a little weird that the last chapter was the one named “Dark Prophecy”, and yet this one is where that prophecy is actually discussed. I Would Have Done Things Differently, she says, with twenty-twenty hindsight.
I rather sped by the Dark Prophecy bits of the chapter in the original commentary with a link to the WOTFAQ (which no longer works, but this one is still good), because at the time I had five chapters to get through in one evening, because at the time I was insane. And by now, I think, most of the “prophecy” here (I use the quotes because it’s never been confirmed whether this was legit prophecy or just Darkside propaganda) has been rendered obvious or irrelevant. That said, there are a few snippets which are of some interest:
Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.
Back in the day, of course, we all assumed the “lover” was Rand, and that’s probably still the correct assumption. However, in light of events in AMOL, an argument can be made that this actually refers to Perrin, methinks. True, Lanfear and Perrin were never actual lovers in the physical sense, but then, I would point out, neither were she and Rand. And certainly the Compulsion Lanfear uses to subtly twist Perrin to be on her side in AMOL can count as making him her “lover” in a more esoteric sense.
I dunno, maybe it’s a stretch, but that’s what I thought of when I read this passage again, so I brought it up. There’s really no way to say unless Team Jordan chooses to confirm it (or not) at some point, but if Jordan’s plans re: Verin were this long-term, what’s to say this wasn’t too? Food for thought!
Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.
Isam waited in the high passes.
The hunt is now begun. The Shadow’s hounds now course, and kill.
One did live, and one did die, but both are.
I am still vaguely irritated that this whole melding thing was never really explained in the series proper, but it really does seem like the explanation we are to go with is, basically, “Once upon a time Luc and Isam were two separate dudes, and then the Dark One smushed them together into one dude for assassin reasons. The End.” Okay then!
Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.
(The “seed” being “the Seanchan”). So, did we ever find out what “ancient wrong” the Seanchan were supposed to slay? I mean, this is Dark Prophecy, so the “wrong” is probably something that’s actually awesome.
Hmm. Maybe what they were supposed to slay was PERSONAL FREEDOM. You know, because SLAVERY.
Which, as you may possibly have sorta kinda noticed, is not my favorite thing. Maybe just a little!
[Perrin] tried to slide around [Leane] to the door, but suddenly her hands shot out and grabbed his face, tilting it down so she could peer into his eyes. Something seemed to pass through him, a warm ripple that started at the top of his head and went to his feet, then came back again. He pulled his head out of her hands.
“You’re as healthy as a young wild animal,” she said, pursing her lips. “But if you were born with those eyes, I am a Whitecloak.”
“They’re the only eyes I ever had,” he growled. He felt a little abashed, speaking to an Aes Sedai in that tone, but he was as surprised as she when he took her gently by the arms and lifted her to one side, setting her down again out of his way. As they stared at each other, he wondered if his eyes were as wide with shock as hers. “Excuse me,” he said again, and all but ran.
Yep, this is still hilarious. Made so, I think, by the fact that there is no real threat here, on either side. Perrin’s casual demonstration that he can totally just pick up a woman like she is, um, something easy for non-muscley people to pick up, is made funny because we know Perrin would never use that strength to her disadvantage, even if Leane couldn’t kick his ass six ways to Sunday with the Power. So it’s funny. Aaaand I think I am ruining the joke by explaining it, but whatever, I laughed, it was great.
And woe, I am 99% sure this is the only time Leane and Perrin meet in the entire series. Obviously the standard (and legit) excuse of “sorry, much bigger fish to fry than this random reunion of supporting characters” applies, but they were just so bizarrely endearing in the three seconds that they did meet that I still kind of wish they’d encountered each other again, even if only briefly. Oh well.
Rand and Perrin, though, are still a stupid duo. Ugh, I hate this “hate on Rand because he pretended to love being a lord” thing.
Rand frowned. “Why are you telling me this, Lan? You’re a Warder. You’re acting as if you are on my side.”
“I am on your side, sheepherder. A little. Enough to help you a bit.” The Warder’s face was stone, and sympathetic words sounded strange in that rough voice. “What training you’ve had, I gave you, and I’ll not have you groveling and sniveling. The Wheel weaves us all into the Pattern as it wills. You have less freedom about it than most, but by the Light, you can still face it on your feet. You remember who the Amyrlin Seat is, sheepherder, and you show her proper respect, but you do what I tell you, and you look her in the eye. Well, don’t stand there gaping. Tuck in your shirt.”
Besides Lan just generally being squeeable here, there’s probably merit in his remark on Rand’s lack of freedom. You can justifiably yell at Rand for failing to take the opportunity to run he was given, maybe, but from the necessarily fatalistic point of view of “The Wheel weaves as it will”, his leaving was never going to happen in any case. Which is depressing, but convenient. And it leads to the awesome that is the next chapter, so whatever, I’ll take it.
But not until next week, my pretties! Try not to broil to death if your weather is anything like mine, and I’ll see you next Tuesday!
I suppose what you said about the Red Ajah and their role in the book could also be applied to the Whitecloaks and (in a slightly different way) the Seanchen.
The RA and WC were two groups that, while supposedly Light-aligned, served as adversaries for a good deal of the series. You had to wait a long time to get positive portrayals of individuals for each group, as they tended to be represented by Darkfriends (Carradin, Liandrin, etc.) or people with their own agendas (Elaida, Niall, etc.). People like Silviana and Teslyn started getting bigger roles to show the Red in a more positive light after a certain point and when Galad came into power, more reasonable Whitecloaks started being noticed (Trom, Dain Bornhold starting to think in terms other than “must kill Perrin. killed my father. must kill Perrin. killed my father”).
The Seanchen are similar, except they weren’t painted so much as an “on our side, so why the…?!?” group, but more of a “weird invaders who practice slavery and, therefore, are bad” faction. Then, after a while, we get POVs from soldier-types like Karade and Tylee Khirgan (or however it’s spelled; too lazy to look it up), where you get the opinion that while the nobility might be weird/messed up, the working-class grunts are very relatable.
Sort of the point in the series where it’s time to start removing the more petty grievances to get everyone on the same page to fight the real evil (except for the Shaido…no one likes the Shaido).
Great couple of chapters. Really wish you were doing the next one as well(because well..you know!! Cat Crosses the Courtyard, indeed), but I’ll try and be patient and wait for next week.
As for this week’s chapters, I also really like the bit when Rand is running through the women’s quarters, sword in hand. Jordan does a fantastic job of writing it in such a way that, being in Rand’s head, it seems perfectly normal. Rand panics and wants to get to Egwene and no one is going to get in his way. But looking at it from outside…it’s just a crazy Southern lord running around waving a sword. I would also *love* to see on screen the part when he runs into all the Aes Sedai(including Siuan!). Hilarious and awesome is Rand in his single-mindedness.
I also agree that the Red Ajah also being the Evil Ajah came across a bit to strongly. Wish we had been introduced to Pevara or Teslyn sooner in series. As it is, I think Jordan does realise he’d made a mistake in his treatment of the Red Ajah and does a good job subverting the readers’ expectations with Joline and Teslyn. So, points to Jordan for self-awareness!
And truly, reading the series again, knowing about both Ingtar and Verin…so much more fun and delightful actually understanding their true motivations. I love Verin muchly. And I grieve for Ingtar, even more as we see the results of his actions in the next few chapters…
One more note! I’ve just restarted my own personal re-read of this series. First re-read since the whole series has been out. Utterly delightful…I almost forgot how much I love the Wheel of Time. I’m currently in The Great Hunt – right at Portal Stone sequence! So this re-read is well-timed, even though I fear I’m going to outpace it soon. I cannot slow my reading, alas.
Thanks again for the re-read posts, Leigh – always enjoy. :)
Once we know who is black ajah, some of the conversations the super-girls have with sisters in the tower in books 2 and 3 take on a whole new feel upon rereading. I think … probably with the dead gray man bit … that there’s some conversations where the super-girls are talking to multiple sisters at once that are all black.
Something worth pointing out re: Red Ajah/Slytherin connection. It is made pretty clear, as you often point out, that the isolation that the Aes Sedai subject themselves to contribute in large part to their attitudes and inability to admit mistakes, adapt to changing circumstances, etc.
The Red Ajah is even worse, given that theirs is the only Ajah with a specifically aggressive agenda (hunt down male channelers) and which manages to further alienate themselves from half the population. So some measure of arrogance and bigotry is to be expected; the entire purpose of the Ajah is a form of bigotry, if a somewhat justified one.
Slytherin, by contrast, is just a bunch of students whose primary quality is ambition. They don’t isolate themselves, they aren’t bound by mission parameters which require them to be Death Eaters, etc etc. I chalk it up to Rowling just being a far inferior author to Jordan. She wasn’t particularly capable of writing nuance in any of her other characters, especially the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs. As with almost everything in the Harry Potter-verse, everything not directly helping or harming Harry is sort of hand-waved away and ret-conned as needed. I think the only instance we ever get of Ravenclaw’s being the “intelligent” House comes towards the end of Deathly Hallows, when their access question to their common room is a riddle.
What about Regulus Black? I’d say he showed as much remorse as Snape.
These chapters have some of my favorite moments of the book (itself one of my favorites): Rand and Suian, Perrin and Leane, Lan and Rand.
I think Jordan clearly thought an Ajah devoted to hunting down men would attract the wrong sort and make them worse once they got there. On a related note, it’s amazing how late a lot of the complexity of the world and story is developed or shown relative to some of the epic fantasy being written today.
Didn’t Lanfear rape Rand in the Dream World (which would totally count).
20/20 Hindsight Department
That Verin calls him the Great Lord, not the Dark One, is a big, fat clue to her affiliation with the BA. How did Moraine and Siuan miss it?
And how did Ingtar and the fade get to the dungeon to cause all the mayhem before Rand arrived there? I’m sure Ingtar knew his way around the keep much better than Rand, but even so…it would take a finite amount of time to kill the guards, scribble on the walls in blood and free Fain before Rand arrived. It didn’t seem to me that Rand took the long route or dilly-dallied on the way. So, the timing struck me as odd. Or I missed something, which is entirely possible. Perhaps Fain and some miscellaneous trollocs had it going on before Ingtar and the fade arrived?? Thinking that the topic may have been discussed back in the day (original re-read), I went looking. And found the link above to past history is for the TGH prologue through chapter 5 post. Just sayin’. Leigh’s post for TGH part 2 has 146 comments, which I didn’t want to skim just now, maybe later.
Also in chapter 6, Moraine exerts authority over Liandrin, so props to her for that.
In chapter 7, Moraine thinks to herself Mat is no longer necessary because the horn is gone. And isn’t he? Presumably the horn will be recovered and Mat Hornsounder will again be necessary. At least until he dies in the confrontation with Rahvin and is released from the bond to the horn. Finally, I’m rolling with the idea that the DO’s minions freed Fain just to increase the general chaos in Randland. Fain is an entirely different flavor of evil than the DO, it wasn’t like they were best buddies working toward the exact same end game (and the DO had to know that, didn’t he?).
Tor.com is behaving bizarrely today, logging me out randomly and taking me to pages I didn’t click on. Must be proximity to the Blight or some such.
I’ve always thought that the Slytherins and the red ajah to a lesser extent were natural consequences of the world they existed in. These are isolated communities with incredible power. Within those communities there is bound to be a tension as to whether to use that power moderately or abuse that power. Even on and individual level in both works you see heroes abuse that power, whether its Hermione permanently scarring students who break her code or the frequent intimidation tactics employed by the hero Aes Sedai throughout the wheel of time. In both worlds , the powered communities are more comfortable with abuse and so would tolerate groups which are a lot more likely to be bad than we would, or even than the non-powered communities in their respective worlds.
I think that it is telling how Verin pretends to be only interested in history. Moiraine has clearly known her for a long time, and she doesn’t suspect anything. Verin, while on the subject of Mat’s dagger, starts to think about the potential (how fast could it infect people) rather than thinking for Mat’s safety, and Moiraine is surprised, thinking that the Browns aren’t aware of the world at all. Then, Verin blindly discusses the prophecy, playing into Moiraine’s and Siuan’s beliefs. This is only the first time that she shocks people with how much she really notices.
On another note, I think it’s interesting how Jordan plays the characters in this section. Rand is freaking out about the Amyrlin, and how Moiraine might be telling everyone about him, yet we’ve just seen how Siuan is Moiraine’s novice friend and Rand shouldn’t be very worried. Also, we see the first hints of the Seanchan with the prophecy, yet no one realizes how soon that will impact the storyline. Most of the prophecy points all the way to Tarmon Gai’don.
I also think it’s intriguing how Jordan can explain why Rand might not have left Fal Dara. Rand immediately thinks it’s his fault when the alarms go off, a remnant suspicion from home. And, he and Perrin still have that issue where they think someone else is good with girls, something that lasted from the Two Rivers. Of course Rand would stay, no matter what he says or thinks, he wouldn’t leave his friends behind. (and, you know, ta’veren and stuff like that)
I also love that line about suspecting Ingtar! The reread is great, keep it up. One thing, though: Could you say which chapters you will read ahead of time? That makes it easier to know to read one or two chapters.
Leigh, I disagree with your belief of who is Lanfear’s lover. IMO, Lanfear’s lover is Rand (i.e. LTT reborn). It is only in AMoL in the Dreamshard where Rand opens up his mind and let Lanfear look into it. She sees that Rand does not love her in the present (heck, if IIRC, LTT never truly loved Lanfear in the same way that LTT loved Sunhair. Once she learned this, Lanfear switched to Plan B. Although, immediately after seeing what was in Rand’s mind, I do not think Lanfear knew what Plan B was. Lanfear only formulated Plan B when she saw what Perrin could do in the World of Dreams.
I have two theories on what the seed slaying the ancient wrong means. The obvious is righting the wrong of the Randlanders forgetting their oaths. The second theory (which may be outside the box) is that the wrong is allowing channelers to roam free. For centuries, Seanchans have been collaring channelers. Yet on the Randland side of the ocean, they allow channelers to remain free. Prior to Hawkwing launching the expedition to Seanchan, IIRC, Hawkwing hated the Aes Sedai. Thus, those who conquered the Seanchan continent would have also continued this hatred.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewHB
*flaunts Brown tendencies proudly*
“Even if they had not been Aes Sedai, he would not have wanted to remain in the same room with anyone who thought reading Trolloc script written in human blood was “interesting.”– My favorite non-quote ASOIAF line. Love ya, Verin.
“Too many in the Borderlands can decipher Trolloc script.” But why would anyone but an inquisitive scholar bother to learn it? Where would humans generally encounter it, aside from usually-inconsequential murder scene graffiti?
Given Randlander notions of foul language, I really want to know what Rand considers “blasphemies and obscenities which would’ve made the toughest soldier or stable hand go pale.” Also, we’ve been told that very few Trollocs can learn to speak multiple languages, much less write in them. Fain repeatedly hangs out with especially smart ones, it seems.
Was the prophecy written in the actual Trolloc language? Or, like, human language with the Trolloc alphabet, if that’s even possible? Hard to imagine Trollocs having words for “lover” and “friend.” Pleasing, though.
The “no good Slytherins” issue was discussed at length in the comments to last week’s Harry Potter Reread at tor.com. Did you read that, or is your discussion of it today a coincidence?
Earlier in TGH, someone (Moiraine, I think) is surprised to see Liandrin apparently being friendly toward some non-Aes-Sedai woman (Amalisa?) and thinks “Liandrin would be as likely to befriend a man, or a Trolloc. She wasn’t sure Liandrin saw much difference between men and Trollocs. She wasn’t sure any of the Red Ajah did.” A succinct introduction to this group…but how accurate is it?
I swear, Tor.com is really messing with me. This is the second time I’ve been checking for an expected article/post repeatedly and not found it, only to find it much later posted before articles that were here the last time I checked. I wonder if I need to clear out my cache more often.
As to Verin using the phrase ‘Great Lord’, I call shenanigans on that as a clue. She is quoting from and analyzing the dark prophecy at the time; so a nice bit of irony given what we know now, but hardly a clue.
Red Ajah = Slytherin, yes but the parallel only goes so far. IMHO, RJ sell the concept much better and makes it more plausible. Besides the Red Ajah was not know for producing Dread Lords, or sympathizing with the Dark One’s policies and philosophies, unlike a certain Hogwarts House. I don’t think it is known if they actually had a higher percentage of darkfriends than any other Ajah (surely someone on the internet has done the analysis?). So, yes, the Reds are by and large jerks, but so are the White Cloaks, the Shaido Aiel, and the Seanchen (well, we meet some Seanchen who are a little bit better, but I maintain that the White Cloaks, not so much).
Yeah, no one likes the Shaido. We only have ONE likeable Shaido in the whole series… AND SHE TURNED OUT TO BE A DARKFRIEND! The ones who rescued the Faile Women’s Auxiliary don’t count, they’re Brotherless and thus explicitly non-Shaido.
Speaking of which, I would not be surprised to find the Shaido ended up dangerously depopulated due to suicide. Think about it: They’re literally the ONLY group in the whole CONTINENT who managed to SIT OUT THE LAST BATTLE (double irony, because the Aiel where the only who who actually weren’t trying to do so. Quite the opposite, in fact). You can bet your ass no clan will EVER let them forget it. Heck, SHARANS showed up to the Last Battle (admittedly on the wrong side, but still, they get a participation award).
cdrew147 @9
I agree with you–I’d like to know how many chapters we’re covering in the next installment. I think it only really matters to those of us rereading the books at the same pace as this redux, though. I asked Leigh about giving us a heads-up a while back and she said just figure on 2 chapters. Worst case, we’ll read one too many, but it’s not a huge deal. Unless she decides to cover 3. ;-)
gadget @13
The “prophecy” itself does say Great Lord, so, yeah, you’re probably correct about Verin just echoing what was written on the wall rather than slipping up (intentionally or not).
I’m having the same type of problems with the website. I don’t think it’s a cache issue, but it doesn’t hurt to clear it out once in a while.
@13 and @15 ~ I clear my cache and history after every session but still have issues with Tor. Not sure why. At one point the page froze causing me to shutdown Safari and reload Tor.com. I’ve had the same delay in posting issues, as well as having comments disappear before being able to post.
Leigh, I completely missed Verin’s reference when talking about the “The Great Lord”. I missed it when I reread the books and missed the reference when reading the paragraph in this ReRead. It wasn’t until I read your comment following the quote that caused me to think, “wait, what?” which led to rereading the paragraph; then reading it again; then AGAIN before I caught the “Great Lord” reference. Good catch! It went right over my head.
My biggest disappointment in the series was Lanfear. Somehow I thought she would give up her old ways and return to the light. I realize she would have been killed by the other forsaken for doing so, but for some reason, before Moiraine knocked her clean through the opening of the Aelffin and Eelfinn’s domain and into their claws, I thought she may actually have redeeming qualities.
I continue to lament the existence of Fain. Bleh. Could have done without that storyline altogether.
Ways @7
I believe Fain was released much earlier, not long after Egwene went down and Rand went to sleep. Fain has had time to get to the strongroom, perhaps with Ingtar’s help. So most of the bad stuff occurs before Rand even awakens.
And Mat is not a Hornsounder yet – that’s Chapter 47. So did Min predict something? Or was Morraine just thinking of her plan to have the boys take the Horn to Illian?
Leane was amazed a peon male would dare lay hands on her, and her Domani heart was set aflutter. That’s my reading, and I’m sticking to it.
“See you next Tuesday?” How many times have you used that closer, Leigh?
Why is Moiraine closing her eyes to channel? Doesn’t she have to se the flows?
If Almoth had a chora tree, it need not be a cutting from Avendesora.
Rand wanting to leave but always delaying it parallels Mat in the Stone.
The “wrong” the Seanchan fight is people who have “forgotten” to worship Hawkwing.
re: seed slaying the ancient wrong
Dissolution of Hawking’s empire (and possibly the rise of the White Tower after his end)?. Ishy was involved in that era, IIRC, so the Seanchan return to (re) establish that empire would ‘fix’ what went wrong after Ishy was put back to sleep and the puny Randlanders mucked up the whole Empire thing and broke it all back into bits.
@22, if remember correctly, the White Tower was already in place before Hawking. He did lay siege to Tar Valon before he died.
Thanks for the doing this again, Leigh. I am glad I get to participate in this one while it’s going on, was too late for the re-read… :)
I thought it made a lot of sense that the Red Ajah had more Black Ajah than any other Ajah. It’s the perfect place for them – they know that the Dragon Reborn will be a man who can channel, so obviously they want to sever (that “gentling” term makes me wince every time I read it) every channeling man that they can find, in the hopes of getting rid of the Dragon Reborn. So, if a woman being raised to Aes Sedai is already a Darkfriend, it makes perfect sense that she’d choose Red. And given the feelings we see in the Red Ajah, the isolationism, the hatred…. it makes sense that a lot of them would turn Black too, even if they didn’t start out that way. I mean, if you were hanging out with hate-filled lunatics all the time, you’d probably start to turn a little dark too, right? I think that’s why Pevara and Teslyn are so amazing – they somehow kept their humanity despite being in the Red Ajah.
Oh, and Teslyn was still awesome even before her damane experience – remember that she was the one who gave the note to Mat, warning the Super Girls about something-or-other.
On a side note: I’ve been following the reread for ages (even bought the ebook versions!), but have just decided to start actually participating in the discussions. Because, well, they’re awesome. Plus it makes me feel less weird and insane to know that so many people are as into the Wheel of Time as I am. Strength in numbers!
(Edit to correct a sentence that didn’t make sense)
You all have been reading the prophecy wrong, the “seed” has nothing to do with the Seanchan. The prophecy itself is somewhat jumbled in terms of events. The passage in question goes:
The Watcher’s wait on Toman Head
The watchers wait for the Seanchan, however it says nothing about whether the Seanchan actually show up, though we know this to be true eventually. They do return.
The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree
There is only one ancient tree: Avendesora, and it burns most notably during the fight between Rand and Asmodean during their battle over the Choedan Kal. If the Choedan Kal is thought to be the seed of the “Hammer” i.e. the enormous Sa’Angreal, then the later line of the prophecy makes more sense:
Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes
The ancient wrong would of course refer to the taint on Saidin, which is cleansed with the power of the Choedan Kal. Why the Dark Prophecy would consider it to be an ancient “wrong” it’s hard to say, but it is worth considering that many Darkfriends over the course of the series are not quite taken with the idea of the taint, and even the male Forsaken (with the exception of Ishamael, who to be fair is already quite insane) fear losing the Dark One’s protection from it.
Good observations so far. Only a two things to add.
The Reds don’t have to deal with the expectation of bonding a Warder. Remember during the BA POV sequences how one complained about having to mask the bond to avoid her light side Warder, while another enjoyed the luxury of having a DF Warder? It’s all about reducing complicating factors when you’re operating incognito. Also, with the BA forced recruiting tactics (like how Verin was scooped up), it’s easier to do that when the Sister doesn’t have a Warder.
givemeraptors@26
Spot on. We know for sure that “seeds” are the beginning material stage used to invest personal OP strength over time in order to make a (Sa)Angreal.
Hah, Leigh, I made that same observation on last week’s Harry Potter thread. Although I agree that Jordan does a better job at showing some nuance there than Rowling (overall I do think she’s a good writer but that is one of the rougher edges).
For the longest time I’d refer to myself as Daughter of the Night and would use that quote as a kind of signature. I was (am) a big night owl.
I’ve enjoyed reading the prophecy discussions! There’s some stuff I forgot about here!
Hi Verin! Definitely my second favorite character in the series (after Nyneave).
Mostly agree with 26, the couplets describe things at hugely varying times and of course have multiple interpretations.
Is Laman a Seed of the Hammer (i.e. Andor’s rulers and hence Rand are of course). Of course Asmo and Rand torch Avendesora.
It’s the later stanzas that really put the kibosh on the aGH only to me: the Great Lord isn’t coming until winter starts and stops for example :)
Regarding Verin, I agree with Gadget that Verin using Dark Lord is not really a clue, since she was quoting the dark prophecy, but it is a nice bit of irony. I agree with Leigh, though, that Verin comes off as even more awesome in light of later developments. In short, Verin rocks.
@14 – scm of 2814 – Weren’t there some moderately likeable Shaido in the scene where they were being tricked (by a Foresaken, but I cannot recall which one at the moment) into Travelling all over creation? I could have sworn we saw a scene, and maybe even a POV, that made a few of them seem not so bad.
@25 – Min – Well said. I also think that in light of some of the gender themes in the WOT, it makes sense that the Ajah with the most gender-based prejudices would come off as the worst. Also agree that it makes the “cool” Reds even cooler.
In defense of the Reds: (Note I’m writing this as a man who would be looked down upon by them)
When it comes right down to it, the Red Ajah was probably the most useful to the world for the vast majority of the 3000 years the White Tower was in place (with the Grey and Yellow tied for second followed by yellow, greens, blue, brown then white if I were to guess).
The Reds were for all intents and purposes the Military Police of the Channeling world. Of course they had the most blacks. They were the most populous and they had far and away the most real, useful combat experience–as proven by the so-called “Battle Ajah” Green’s flat out pitiful performance against the Seanchan and in a few other instances.
The reds likely went toe to toe against male channelers far, far more often in their lifetimes than the average green ever found herself in a real, actual battle. And in all likelyhood, the times the Tower actually did felt a need to send contingents of Aes Sedi to participate in particularly bad battles, most if not all of the ajahs would have been present–including the reds.
If I were the Shadow, that extremely important sub-organization is one I would prioritize above all others. Not only are they the most battle ready, but they’re isolated from their peers as any Internal Affairs sub-group is bound to be. That isolation makes them vulnerable.
Hi all! Tai’shar Tor Rereaders! I’ve missed being able to participate the last couple of months. I’ve been reading and lurking but not able to find time space and peace to post. (Being out-of-work and job hunting is a more-than-full-time job! With lousy benefits. But hopefully I’ll be back regularly now.)
Multiple Walls of Text warning…I have many thoughts! :)
Rand and Nynaeve’s interactions are interesting here in light of, say, TGS, and how Dark Rand trusted Nynaeve up until the end. I’d forgotten some of their interactions in the first two books – at the inn in Baerlon where she is the only one he can talk to about Tam not being his birth-father; here, where she’s standing by him despite him being able to channel. (More than Mat will be able to say in a few chapters.) Nynaeve is awesome.
I also got a laugh from Rand saying he’d ‘gotten permission to enter the women’s apartments’ – not only in light of the trouble he’ll get in for running through there with a sword, but also Nynaeve’s comments about him becoming more Shienaran every day. Egwene is the one we normally think of adopting the customer of the people she’s with – Aes Sedai and Aiel. Interesting seeing Rand doing the same thing, with the Shienaran/Borderlander/Warder customs he’s picking up. Telling people to let peace favor their sword, etc. Especially given some people’s ambivalence toward our Ooh Ooh Girl (who I love almost as much as I love Nynaeve), it’s refreshing to remember when Rand was being the Ooh Ooh Guy picking up the sword and the language and the lording.
Re: the Reds as Slytherins and the gradual discovery of good Reds…you have all sparked a lot of thoughts! @34 wcarter – great points and well-reasoned.
To add to what’s been said – if Reds are the Slytherin equivalent, Gryffindors are the Blue (well, Green probably – but in book 2, probably still Blues). So it’s interesting to note that as our view of Reds gradually improves, our view of Blues declines. Example:
1. Towards the end of the series we (well, I) grow to seriously hate Lelaine. Even Romanda is better than Lelaine. (Lelaine unfortunately survives AMOL, I think. Hopefully Cadsuane will switch her.) And then there’s Lyrelle, who was sent to the Black Tower. Her thoughts about the men she intends to bond and use for advancement are appalling. The two of them – Sitters for the Blue, no less – are odious! (And the other Blue Sitter we know of was actually Black – though Moria’s not a Sitter yet.)
This is interesting because two of the most prominent ‘Good’ Reds are also Sitters at this time – Pevara and Teslyn! Anaiya greeted Moiraine, in the last section, with news about all sort of machinations in the Hall, and an unpredented alliance between Red and Green Ajahs. Siuan greeted her with news that the Hall wanted to reprimand Moiraine and almost forbade Siuan to go to Fal Dara and almost prevented any other Blues from coming. And we’re conditioned to think “oh no!” and to be on the Blue side.
But if I have to choose between Pevara and Teslyn’s faction vs. Lelaine and Lyrelle’s faction…?
Of course, it’s most likely that it’s not Red Bad/Blue Good or vice versa, but “Politics Bad” that is at issue. And at this point (and for a considerable time to come) most Aes Sedai are conditioned to treat Aes Sedai politics as the most important consideration possible. (Important enough for Sheriam to become Black Ajah just to get ahead, for instance.) It may be notable that both Pevara and Teslyn reveal their awesomeness only *after* getting out of the Hall and out into the world where they can do something worthwhile. Lelaine and Lyrelle are political creatures to their core.
2. Another comparison between Red and Blue – consider their differing purposes, from the Reds’ Point of View. All Ajahs see themselves as opposing the Dark Ones, but the Reds are trying to stop another breaking of the world. Men who can channel are a real danger. And currently False Dragons, some of whom can channel strongly, are popping up everywhere. It’s on the Reds to protect everyone. Mazrim Taim caused a lot of trouble in Saldaea and Logain devastated Ghealdan. The need for the Reds is kind of undeniable. (Minus the irony of Cadsuane being the one who brought them in.) But point being – while manhaters and abusers are drawn to the Red, it’s also a home for women who want to actively fight evil (like Pevara) or protect people. (Gryffindor-ish traits.) Blues by contrast are seekers after causes and justice, righters of wrongs, home for awesome sorts like Moiraine and Siuan. But they’re also manipulators and politicians, meddlers who use others for their own ends. (Rather Slytherin-like.)
wcarter @34 – one other thought. I agree that Reds were probably the most obviously useful to the world for most of the Third Age. I doubt Yellows were up in the top three, though, given their isolation. They *could* have been useful but don’t seem to have been out there Healing. So in addition to the usefulness of Grays, I’d suggest that Greens – who earned their stripes as the Battle Ajah during the Trolloc Wars – might also have been pretty useful. (Of course, they still should have been stationed in the Borderlands, but…) And then too, there’s the excerpt from Jordan’s notes on Cadsuane found in the Theoryland database:
The “usual tales expected of a Green” is suggestive to me that there must have been Greens out there being useful – rescuing folks in the Blight, stopping dangerous bands of Darkfriends. There’s mention in New Spring of Greens bringing justice through their Warders’ swords, as another hint.
J.Dauro @17
Details, details. ;-)
And, yep, Fain must have been released from his cell well before Rand arrived on the scene. Whether Fain was assisted by fades/trollocs or corrupted his guards’ minds enough to let him out before they were killed…doesn’t matter so much. The way the text flowed suggested it was Ingtar and the fade were the culprits.
Some shorter, more random thoughts:
Sneaky Verin outmanuvering and outmanipulating our Archetypal Aes Sedai Moiraine is…awesome. I wish I’d been able to comment on the last post about Moiraine – getting her first POV there, where we see what under her calm surface for the first time, is kinda awesome. I also loved the fact that Moiraine was conscious of, and willing to use, her own mystique. For instance, letting other Sisters be worried about her blue jewel. Reminded me of Cadsuane, this time around – during the scene in *mumblesomebookmumble* where she sets up a mirror of some kind and uses it to freak Alanna out by making her think she’s got eyes in the back of head.
Another question that belonged in the last post, but since Rand and Siuan run into each other here, I’ll ask – how did Siuan know she had the Talent to see Ta’veren? Before this, I mean. What others had she encountered?
I still don’t quite understand why Ingtar (presumably?) ordered the Keep closed. What did it accomplish exactly. On the other hand, it’s extremely clever to have Ingtar be the one who tells us that the escape/attack was an inside job – makes it much less likely that we’ll suspect him since he’s the one who raised the charge.
Agreed with several that Verin’s “Great Lord” isn’t a clue or slip-up really, as she’s clearly quoting and explaining. But it *is* cool irony.
Dark Prophecy – most of this doesn’t seem to come true, really, and is likely to be Dark Propaganda. In her original commentary, Leigh mentioned Dark Prophecy being something that was mostly dropped as a concept. And indeed it was. By the time Brandon’s contributions to the series have Moridin and Graendal reading Dark Prophecy, I’d forgotten that there was any such thing. It was a stunning revelation to me (stunningly obvious in hindsight) that Ishy had been stockpiling Foretellings as well as objects of the One Power. Cool to see that set up way back here in book 2.
Re: Lanfear’s “new lover” – agreed with everybody (including Leigh) that it *probably* means Rand. But if it is prophecy…note that it doesn’t say she’ll find a new lover, only that she’ll seek one. It could be Rand, who she certainly sought for awhile. It could be Perrin too – she certainly sought him as a replacement for Rand. And it could be Slayer. In AMOL she was apparently waiting to see whether Perrin or Slayer would triumph before picking the winner to help her kill Rand and Co. And with that thought, I note that her new lover would “die and yet serve”, which is rather reminiscent of Luc and Isam – one died, and one lived, yet both are. It’s also perhaps meant to be reminiscent of Lews Therin dying but being reborn; or the prophecies that Rand would die yet live. So, like any good prophecy, many possibiilities, little certainty.
What ancient wrong does the Seed slay? Hawkwing as Hammer of the Light slew DFs and Trollocs. But also Aes Sedai. The Seanchan will fight both. [@24 MarielaB – yep, the White Tower was already almost 2000 years old during Hawkwing’s reign. @26 – um, no. That seems unlikely to me. Why would the Choedan Kal be referred to as ‘seed of the Hammer’?]
On Perrin and Leane’s meetcute – cute. Good thing for Perrin that she wasn’t Green yet, or she might not have let him leave.
Re: the anger of Perrin and Mat at Rand and their ‘contrived’ fight – I don’t see it as contrived. These are high school students, maybe college Freshman. They’re capable of maturity and capable of ridiculous levels of drama and pettiness. Rings true for me.
More comments on the comments to come!
@37 Chaplainchris
I think you’re underestimating the yellows. While the Greens are certainly important. I think the Yellows are a bit more so for two reasons: 1. They do travel enough that they must do at least some rural healing. And 2. (This is the critical one) When the White Tower does send Aes Sedi to battles whether it be Trolloc Wars, False Dragons, rampaging Aiel mad at a certain king, etc. They would heal soldiers after battles.
This is medieval warfare. Death and permanent injury from what would be survivable wounds with today’s medicines and resources would be the rule rather than the exception. Any Aes Sedi sufficiently talented in healing could mean the difference between losing a leg and making a full recovery.
The Yellows have healing as their raison d’etre. So they are going to be at the forefront of saving lives while the Greens and reds do the fighting. And I’m guessing sick people get tended more often than channelers actually find themselves taking an active role in combat.
Having quality medical care is vital to combat survivability. I imagine that’s a fact not lost on soldiers fighting while Greens are sitting on the sidelines inhibited by the second and third oaths twiddling their thumbs until they hit whatever arbitrary point makes them feel “In danger” so they can actually fight back.
Put another way, anybody can take a life. On the other hand it takes real skill and know-how to bring someone back from the brink.
@40 wcarter – hey man, come back to JordanCon next year! We’d love to see you and we could use you for Team Trivia!
As to your first point, I’d love to believe that Yellows do some traveling and rural Healing; but I haven’t really seen evidence of it. Maybe some of Cadsuane’s folks, like Samitsu and Corele. But I’m not convinced. Ebou Dari Wisewomen/Kinswomen and Village healers like Readers/Guides/Wisdoms etc. do a lot of good, but I don’t see Aes Sedai (Yellows included) doing much Healing unless people come to the White Tower itself and petition for it. Something to watch for as the Re-Reread keeps going.
As to your second point – that’s a really, really good point. I hadn’t thought much about how lethal battlefield injuries would be at this point in time. It’s actually the first thing I’ve heard someone say that makes me feel better about the tactics used in AMOL, where not only an entire Ajah but all 1000+ novices and Accepted were pressed into Healing duties rather than some being used for, say, gateways. (It’s still insane that Elayne let her army get trapped and need rescuing by Ashaman when she could’ve sent for help from the Yellows but that’s another rant. ;)
Anyway, you’re absolutely right about the impact of Healing during warfare at this time. Now, I don’t know that there’s any evidence that Yellows were Healing during most wars between nations…likely they stood apart. But hopefully they were Healing during the Trolloc Wars. It seems like there are lines about the mostly staying in Tar Valon…but if the Soldier Amyrlin Caraighan Maconar was out there fighting then we can hope that Yellows were there Healing.
We do know, now that you’ve made me think of it, that AS Healing was being offered on a massive scale at the end of the Aiel War, during the Blood Snow. That’s not just the Yellows – every available Sister was involved – but they would tend to be the best. And it indicates the value of Healing. So yeah – important Yellow contributions.
You know, one thing that bothered me about the “Dark Prophecy” chapter was: who exactly wrote those messages? I get the readable one (I was going to say “English one,” heh) was from Fain, but what about the others? A myrdraal? Because I have trouble picturing a Fade hanging out, scribbling graffiti on the wall, even if it is in human blood. And the trollocs: what were they writing, the trolloc equivalent of “Narg wuz here”? Aren’t trollocs supposed to be obsessed with killing, and only with killing? It seems unlikely that they’d take a break from killing and eating people to scrawl random stuff on the walls. I don’t know, that always just stuck out for me.
Although, now I can’t get rid of a mental image of a Fade writing “I did it for the lulz!” on the wall, which is pretty amusing, so bonus points for that, I guess.
@@@@@ 42
The prophecy/propaganda was written by a Myrddraal doing what he was told to do. That was confirmed in a Q&A that’s somewhere on Tor.com. The p/p had to be translated, but I don’t recall if it was written in Trolloc script or if that was even mentioned.
Trollocs do seem more intelligent and communicative in these early books relative to mid-arc and BWS’ last 3. Dunno if that means they wrote the “obscenities” on the wall, just sayin’. I was imagining Narg writing something more descriptive about his dungeon exploits than you suggested, though. In Trolloc script, of course.
Rand scrubbed Fain’s message about meeting him again in Toman Head off the wall, so that one must have been “English”
Afterthoughts Dept.
That was Compulsion (Liandrin) and Rand effectively resisted it until Moraine walked in on the party and broke it up.
Edit-typo
@43 Ways
You’re right, I’ve wondered a few times after reading the Liandrin vs. Rand compulsion passage whether he would have eventually given into it or broke it completely possible causing some sort of weave backlash to Ms. evil had the confrontation not been interrupted.
We know that quite a bit later compelling him through the Warder bond was impossible (How in the nine hells did Aes Sedi consider that OK but regular compulsion forbidden by the way?) But by the time Alanna tried to control him he was quite the accomplished channeler and stronger than she and Verin combined.
Here he cant control the power at all, and is much, much weaker. Then again, he also has the legendary Two Rivers stubbornness on his side so I really don’t know.
chaplainchris1 @41: I may be wrong, but I thought at the point where Elayne’s army got trapped by the two Trolloc armies, the Yellows and Novices had yet to be dispatched to Mayne. I thought a central healing location was only utilized when The Light forces consolidated under Mat’s generalship. If I am correct, at the moment that Elayne’s army was trapped, the Aes Sedai forces were overrun by the Sharans. At that moment, they were in complete disarray. The Aes Sedai would not have been able to provide gateways for Elayne’s army.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@@.-@ – With very few exceptions, the entire HP series was written from Harry’s POV; we don’t even got POVs from Hermione, Ron or Dumbledore. While in a way this is limiting the scope of the writing, I also think that it gave a certain amount of freedom for Rowling to write within this restriction (if that makes sense), and I certainly think it was liberating from a reader’s standpoint to imagine scenes that were not included, hence the abundant fan fiction that has swirled around the series for years. I think that was a conscious decision on Rowling’s part to depict the series in this manner, and like all great writers, her writing matured as the series evolved. HP and WOT remain my two favorite series of all time, and for great reasons.
Hmm, not a lot to say about the Red Ajah/Slytherin comparison because Leigh has already pretty much covered it well. The only thing I can think to add is that as much as it might annoy us to not see any good Reds until halfway through the series, there’s a pretty good in-story reason for it besides the need for antagonists (Lightside or otherwise). Because not only is the Red’s raison d’etre and the gender (and magical ability) of the protagonist arranged to create such a set-up as a matter of course, but it’s sadly not hard to believe at all that women who wish to do all they can to protect the world from mad channeling men could end up becoming evil.
It starts off so reasonably, the genuine danger that such men pose and how this requires something be done to get rid of them or at least the threat in them; from there it’s only a small jump to becoming suspicious of and hateful toward such men (whether due to memories and stories of Lews Therin and how his defying Latra Posae “caused” the taint and the Breaking, or thinking such men denied/did not believe in the Light the way Elaida believed). And then from there it isn’t far to just hating and distrusting men on general principle and believing you should have all power over their lives, and that mindset isn’t hard to turn to the Shadow which is all about hating humanity and seeking power. Add in the fact the Reds didn’t have Warders and thus had one less possibility of being caught as Black by the rest of the Aes Sedai, and it’s sadly understandable why so many Reds were Black.
And because of all this, I’m not sure it would have been realistic to show more good Reds than Jordan did. The nice thing is that between those good Reds, the Cleansing, and Egwene’s discussion with Silviana about changing the Red’s mission, it looks like the Red does have a chance of being redeemed. (Having all those Blacks gone from their ranks certainly helps.) And really, with their original mission being fighting against what the taint did to the world and how it artificially made men act evil, coupled with the Shadow’s corruption of their Ajah, it makes perfect sense to me that they become Darkfriend Hunters in the next Age. Pevara and Androl would certainly be on board for that, as well as Silviana and Teslyn, and I bet even Tsutama would see the wisdom in it.
One other side note: while it is true that gathering all the Reds together would tend to encourage their warped thinking and Shadow-inclined beliefs, the difference between this and Slytherin is they aren’t branded as evil at the outset and that in fact what sets them apart, their mission, isn’t inherently evil either. (Not that “ambition” is always evil, but it’s certainly something to be more suspicious of than “protect the world from crazy channelers”, especially when coupled with the bigotry and hatred. And while any Slytherin not already raised in a pureblood family wouldn’t naturally have that arrogance and prejudice until being forced to live surrounded by it, the same is true of Reds who didn’t initially hate men. And the fact the culture of the Red still managed to produce people like Pevara shows there may be more good Slytherins than we realize.)
And most importantly, all the Ajahs are a case of a group being set aside from the rest by their philosophy and ideals, which would tend to reinforce themselves and make it hard for members to be independent thinkers. We’ve even seen examples of how all those philosophies can still be dangerous when everyone toes the party line and falls into stereotypes: the Browns’ and Whites’ disconnection from the real world, the Grays’ conviction that finding a balance and compromise is more important than objective examples of right and wrong, the Yellows thinking Healing is the only thing of value, the Greens’ impetuous hotheadedness, and the Blues’ passion leading them to be willing to sacrifice anything for their causes, rather like modern-day political groups and the SJW crowd. It’s just that for all the other Ajahs, the dangers of such tunnel vision was more subtle and took time to be revealed in the series, while the Reds were obvious about it from the get-go. Which suggests that the Ajah system is as flawed in its way as the Hogwarts House system (something borne out by the fact that originally ajahs weren’t permanent groups at all, but were forced to become so by the Breaking and then became examples of certain powerful figures using them to champion their view of what the White Tower should be—making them permanent caused the same danger as political parties, something George Washington presciently warned against).
Hah, Leigh gives commentary on dresses, and in the process proves the topic is relevant and not just Jordan indulging in too much narrative filigree! Though I do wonder why Nynaeve didn’t realize just how expensive that dress was. Maybe because she just took it for granted Aes Sedai would have fancy clothes and so didn’t bother thinking about the actual price?
I always assumed it really was a consequence of saying the Dark One’s name, serving the purpose of showing why no one ever said it so it would never be brought up again later. Obviously Rand calls him by name all the time during the Last Battle but that’s obviously different since he was right in front of him, so to speak. At this point not drawing his attention outside Shayol Ghul is a good idea. Of course it could just be coincidence, but when you’re talking about the Pattern…
The moment where Rand and Siuan met gazes and he realized she knew about him wasn’t just a seminal moment for him (and the series), it let us know as much as her first appearance and her chapter with Moiraine that she would be a force to be reckoned with.
Hah…in hindsight Rand’s suspicion of Ingtar is both justified and completely founded in truth. But upon first reading, it comes across as just more of Rand’s saidin paranoia. Not to mention that while we had seen a Shienaran at the Darkfriend Social, that could have been anyone (like even Agelmar—ooo, foreshadowing!).
“Interesting” isn’t quite the word Verin meant, I think (well, she probably did, actually), but more like “puzzling”, “intriguing”, or “significant.” Because as you know, Bob, most Trollocs aren’t intelligent enough to write, and the ones who were usually wouldn’t bother with doing so for the sake of scaring humans. What is important about this, of course, is that a) it was actually the Fade who did most of the writing, since they use the same script as Trollocs and b) the Trollocs who did write were either being extremely loyal to Team Dark or were being forced to by the Fade. Either way, it shows there’s more to this than mere propaganda and scare tactics. As we shall see.
I love that by quoting the Dark Prophecy directly, Verin got to call the Dark One the title she was compelled to as a Black, without giving anything away to the reader. That’s high-level sneakiness on both her part and Jordan’s!
I suppose the reason the chapters were titled as they were was because the prophecy was actually found in the previous one (even if we didn’t know that’s what it was till now) and so that we could get the creepy blood quote.
I think Leigh might have a point. While in the sense that he isn’t the man she knew (even though, as he states several times later, he was in fact always Lews Therin and Lews Therin was always him), Rand isn’t really a new lover the way we might take from that phrase. And while she never succeeded in bedding Perrin, it certainly wasn’t for lack of trying on Lanfear’s part, in TDR or AMOL. Clever double meaning again.
I wonder whether the truth about how Isam and Luc were combined will be in the encyclopedia. Also, what was Isam waiting for? Any intruder to cross into the Blight? Or could the Dark One have somehow known Luc was coming, and so set Isam on guard in preparation for making his chief assassin?
You know, I too always thought the “ancient wrong” was the damane and the collaring of women, but of course that’s from my properly biased POV that enslaving them was wrong. Since this was supposed to be a Shadow prophecy, and it was surely written at the order of Ba’alzamon who knows all there is to know about the Seanchan since he essentially helped create them as we know them, it stands to reason it’d be something they/he would see as wrong, not us/Team Light. That being said, it’s likely the prophecy does in fact refer to the ‘wrong’ of Hawkwing’s empire having fallen apart at his death, so the Seanchan came to ‘fix’ this by conquering Randland.
Still, the fact there was a legend about the Towers of Midnight, that they would be entered when the time came to right some ancient wrong, makes me think there may be more to it. While they were built during the Consolidation and thus the time when Ishamael was free and influencing them, anything related to the “wrong” to fix in Randland (and the “doom yet to come”) wouldn’t have anything to do with the Towers. So it may well be that this is still referring to the damane problem, and may have been slated to be something Mat and Tuon would have dealt with in the outrigger.
I’ll never forget that moment with Perrin and Leane. It’s even funnier considering how she becomes a more typical Domani after being stilled; one has to wonder in retrospect if meeting Perrin had any influence on her decision after the fact. And it really is a shame they never got to meet again, even briefly. There was even the perfect opportunity, in ToM when Perrin burst in on the fight with the Black Ajah. Leane was involved, but she wasn’t around for Perrin to see and vice versa, just Egwene. Ah well.
While it’s still awful seeing Perrin and Rand act like this, I content myself with remembering how they become good close friends again at the end of the series.
Lan’s comment to Rand about his freedom has a great resonance with what Tam tells Rand later, when Rand in turn claims to have no freedom thanks to the Pattern. Unsurprisingly, Tam and Lan are on the same page about this: that even if what you do (or are able to do) is beyond your control, what matters is why you do it and how you comport yourself while doing so.
@1 Robert: Very good points.
@3 hellzie: I’m not sure that’s completely true (they’re around Alanna a lot and while suspicious she’s not Black), but they do talk a lot to Sheriam, Alviarin is mentioned a fair amount (in fact she’s one of those who teaches Egwene and Nynaeve on the way to Tar Valon in a few chapters, eek!), and I seem to recall Katerine being around. We’ll have to wait and see who else pops up.
@6 Herb: Not quite, though she certainly came close in her seductions in TSR.
@7 Ways: As far as I can tell, based on the end of the previous chapter, Ingtar came and freed Fain well before this scene here with Rand, and even before Mat and Egwene’s visit. So there was time for the Fade to do the writing before that happened, as well as steal the Horn, and it was only after Mat and Egwene caught them (and the dagger was stolen) that Fal Dara dissolved into chaos (because the theft of the Horn/Shadowspawn in the keep had been discovered).
Also at this point no one knows Mat will be the Hornsounder…so while I’m not sure what prompted Moiraine to think Mat wasn’t necessary once the Horn was gone, she couldn’t have known his future role and thus consider that a reason to keep him around. (Though surely the fact he’s ta’veren rates keeping tabs on him?) Although see my thought below to J.Dauro…
You could be right about Fain, although at this point I don’t think the Dark One or Ishamael realizes yet what happened to him in Shadar Logoth, so they probably would want him back for the same reason they used him in TEotW: to keep tabs on the boys, especially Rand. And even once they did find out, his connection to the dagger gave him a tie to Mat.
@9 cdrew: Is it any wonder Sheriam says later she never would have expected of Verin the savviness and cleverness she used to undermine the Black? But yes, that as well as everything else you mentioned is one of Jordan’s better abilities, that of using dramatic irony and foreshadowing.
@12 Aerona: I’m…not sure. I always thought it was in the Trolloc language (which Verin can translate as much due to being Black as Brown), but you have a good point about those words not fitting their vocabulary. Unless she merely substituted them for the closest Trolloc equivalent (“not-meat”? “broodmare”? *shudders*), it must have been what you said, human words in Trolloc script.
And Moiraine’s assessment is of course that of a Blue with her own biases. So I’d imagine it isn’t as accurate as it seemed on first blush. Clearly some are like Liandrin (Elaida) while others are more neutral though still suspicious/hostile (Silviana, Teslyn, Tarna), and others are like Pevara and have no problem with men as long as they aren’t channelers.
@16 WDWParksGal: You are certainly not the only one in the fandom to feel that way/wish that about Lanfear! Including yours truly. But I understand why it didn’t happen, and it just makes the whole thing more tragic in the end.
@17 J.Dauro: Well, Min did see a horn around Mat in Baerlon. Perhaps she told Moiraine?
@25 MinNotElmindreda: It was warning them about Elaida and the danger she and her minions posed to the rebels.
@26 givemeraptors: You have a very good point about Avendesora burning (though that could have just been Jordan ironically fulfilling the prophecy literally, as a red herring—note it happens in the same book that the nation whose symbol was the tree, Tarabon, starts to fall to the Seanchan, the process finishing in TFOH and LOC). But the rest feels like reaching to me. Or are you saying the use of Hammer, capitalized and meant to make us think of Hawkwing, was itself the red herring (and introduced by Verin, no less) and we should have been thinking of it as something metaphorical with great power, like the Choedan Kal?
@30 The Dark Prophecy: Depends how you define that. Andor was once part of Hawkwing’s empire, and Ishara was from his time, but she was merely a governor, not related to him. But if by seed you mean something that resulted (“sprouted”) from something else, rather than literal biological relation, then yes Andor (and Rand) would be his seed. Laman, I don’t think so, he’s descended from Cairhien which was not really a result of Hawkwing; his only peripheral connection is that what he did led to the whole thing with Taringail and Morgase, as well as the Aiel, and thus tied him indirectly to both Andor and Rand.
@33 TaiSharNedStark: Yes, that was in ACOS when Sammael and Graendal tricked them. And you’re right, the Shaido guy in that scene didn’t seem quite so bad.
@34 wcarter: Very good points.
@35 chaplainchris: That’s right! And how great to see that parallel between him and Egwene. Even once they aren’t intendeds, they still have a lot in common.
Also great insight at 36, and I join you in your loathing of Lelaine and Lyrelle. Still, there were other Blues who give me hope for the Ajah: Leane (remember, before she changed Ajahs), Siuan obviously, Anaiya, Kairen, Eadyth and Cetalia from NS, Cabriana for the short time we knew her (and note she was also was one of those we saw out of the Tower, doing things in the world instead of caught up in political machinations).
@37: Apparently the modern crop of Greens is nowhere near as awesome as those back in the day creating legends, whether Cadsuane or that Amyrlin who died taking out a whole bunch of Dreadlords and Shadowspawn. I’d guess because since Hawkwing’s time they haven’t been out there fighting and being tested like the Reds (and a couple very important Blues!) were.
@38 Ways: Even if Ingtar and the Fade did the release, I imagine the guards helped/looked the other way (until they were killed).
@39 chaplainchris: That’s…a good question. Either there were ta’veren before now (note we were told Hawkwing was the last extremely powerful ta’veren, not the last ta’veren period), or someone else had that Talent in the past and wrote down how it manifested so that Siuan could recognize it in herself. Or both.
Ooo good point about the parallel between Lanfear’s lover and Slayer. I didn’t even think about how her saying she was waiting to see which of him or Perrin won could apply to this prophecy.
And @41: I have to agree the Yellows seemed to stay in the Tower for the most part and not go out and help people as much as they really should; note that the emergency signal Ronde Macura uses in TFOH hadn’t been used in centuries. But I also think you’re right that we can be sure they at least were involved in the Trolloc Wars, possibly also the fights against Guaire Amalasan, and good point about the aftermath of the Blood Snow. So while their service to others wasn’t as good as we’d have liked it, it’s not as bad as we feared either.
@42 MinNotElmindreda: Jordan told us explicitly, if I remember correctly, that the Fade did it. As to why, under orders from Ba’alzamon, clearly. The fact we later learn Ishy had a stash of Foretellings makes it more likely he’d have the resources as well as the desire to order something like this.
@43 Ways: As if we needed more evidence of Rand’s awesomeness!